perardi 43 days ago [-]
“These steps are mentioned in a portrait of Duesmann, who has been at the helm of the VW subsidiary in Ingolstadt for three quarters of a year, in the German publication Manager Magazin. Specifically, it says that new versions of the A4 and A6 will be launched again from 2023 and electric variants will follow a little later, but that Audi does not even want to offer the mid-range models as internal combustion engines until the end of their life. Ergo, the end will be before 2030.”

Um. That is not exactly an announcement.

That’s an attempt to read between the lines of an article in a magazine that says Audi would like to start phasing things out, maybe, if the market and regulatory conditions are right. That is a far cry from an announcement.

adrianmonk 43 days ago [-]
Another piece of context regarding hybrids:

> politics will no longer promote the technology after the federal elections in autumn 2021 at the latest, and that customers will then lose interest

As this is a German company, the interview was with a German magazine, and Germany is having federal elections in fall 2021, he is probably referring to regulatory changes which may affect only the German market. Audi could still sell hybrids elsewhere in the world.

perardi 43 days ago [-]
I dunno about Germany, but in the US, I think it’s fair to say customers don’t care about hybrids. They're less than 3% of the market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_th...

I suspect straight-up EVs are more palatable to average consumers because it’s just conceptually simple. You plug it in. Like a phone.

Whereas a hybrid…well, is it a hybrid, is it a plug-in electric hybrid, wait, I have to plug it in and also fuel it, when does it…can I drive around on just battery…I personally love the Honda Clarity Hybrid†, but trying to explain it conceptually to my partner was a chore.

Also, pure EVs are supposed to be simpler to build and design. They obviously have a huge cost in terms of that battery, but the actual powertrain is way simpler than a gas-electric hybrid system.

the in-laws live out in the boonies in Ontario, and the lack of charging infrastructure combined with the winter temperatures make plug-in hybrids so attractive for our particular use case—putter around the city on electrons, only use hydrocarbons to see mom

martin_bech 43 days ago [-]
According to VW a hybrid is obviously harder to make than a conventional combustion car, but EVs are actually about 30% easier/less parts.
Shivetya 43 days ago [-]
Well up until the last few years there were hardly and hybrids but now there are quite a few including a good number of PHEVs.

Consistently absent was anything on the higher end but now BMW, Lexus, and others, have a good selection that should fit under the hybrid banner. Hell Chrysler has the only PHEV minivan and that is a big segment

perardi 43 days ago [-]
Well up until the last few years there were hardly

Then why was the peak year for sales in 2013?

https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10301

Consistently absent was anything on the higher end but now BMW, Lexus, and others, have a good selection that should fit under the hybrid banner

The Lexus RX debuted as a hybrid in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_RX

asenk 41 days ago [-]
Hybrids are more favoured in Europe because of stricter fuel economy standards and emission regulation as well as taxes on fuel and on cars based on fuel consumption. Being hard to explain or consumer preference doesn't have to do with it.
dangus 43 days ago [-]
I agree with you on your take. The “announcement” isn’t much of an announcement.

However, the writing is on the wall. I don’t think the general public realizes just how quickly new car buyers will look at electric versus gasoline and be unable to financially justify buying the gasoline model.

(Sure, the used and possibly the “cheapest new car MSRP possible” market will involve gas cars for a long time, but not the “I need a crossover SUV for $35-45k” market that dominates sales and profits.)

By 2030 you’re going to be looking at luxury car electric models with 600 miles of range at current prices or lower, with better reliability and lower cost of ownership.

perardi 43 days ago [-]
Oh, yes, I think EVs are going to be “a thing” soon, especially when it comes to delivery vehicles. (More opportunities for centralized charging, less range anxiety as you’re just trawling down city blocks, extremely obvious environmental benefit of not spewing particulates and NOx in a city.)

I’m just objecting to poorly written puff pieces on electric car blogs.

walshemj 43 days ago [-]
Depends if the large subsidies for well off middle class buyers are kept.
dangus 43 days ago [-]
I don’t think it depends on the subsidies, personally. Tesla doesn’t have them on a federal level anymore and they’re able to compete against the larger market.

Also, the national security implications for keeping gasoline autos as a primary mode of transport are extremely concerning for many countries. China, for example, will never allow gasoline cars to be part of their long-term future. The discussions some countries have regarding completely banning personal automobiles running on gasoline are serious discussions.

So, I’m not sure one can really separate subsidy or penalty/tax from the overall value proposition of owning a product, and one can’t necessarily count on those subsidies or restrictions going away.

tgtweak 43 days ago [-]
This is certainly wishy-washy regarding timelines and commitments.
tobylane 43 days ago [-]
VW has (properly) announced that their end date is 2026. I feel like this is an accurate reading between the lines and it will be announced.
perardi 43 days ago [-]
Sort of?

https://www.thedrive.com/news/25299/volkswagen-says-its-last...

The gasoline engines that debut in 2026 will be the “last generation” of internal combustion engines. Given the lifespan of these models, I think they’ll overshoot a 2030 target. (I will personally eat my hat if they can actually sell a profitable electric Golf-class vehicle in 2026. The margins ain’t there yet.)

spockz 43 days ago [-]
Isn’t the id3 profitable? Maybe not by much but I can hardly imagine them selling a car at a net loss.

Edit: the id3 is the electric counterpart to the golf.

kjksf 43 days ago [-]
"Volkswagen expects to lose about €3000 ($4730) on every ID hatch sold, with profitability forecast to begin around 2025."

https://www.caradvice.com.au/751743/volkswagen-id-neo-losses...

usrusr 43 days ago [-]
Fleet emission rules have the weird (but entirely intended!) effect that they make it economic to sell (nominally or actually) low emission cars at a loss if they compensate highly profitable high-emission cars elsewhere in the portfolio.

Originally this meant that small economy cars got subsidized by expensive guzzlers, but with regulations clamping down on emissions ever harder and with the "Tesla insight" that electric cars just don't work on a budget (not just plain battery cost, also what if you don't have a convenient garage and all that), it's flipping over to electrics from the premium brand in the portfolio cross-subsidizing ICE for the less affluent (e.g. Audi electrics compensating for Seat four cylinders)

perardi 43 days ago [-]
They claim it will be profitable. And it may be right now…

…given they are only selling the most expensive model, at $42,000. (Before tax credits.) That’s a fair bit more expensive than a gas Golf.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a33540804/2021-vw-id3-e...

spockz 43 days ago [-]
In the Netherlands the base Golf starts at €27k. When you customise that to the trim you get stock on the id3 st/plus (st little less, plus more advanced extras) you get to €42382 (config code 8N1B7B) which is not that different from the €43k for the ST and €44k for the Plus.

I can imagine that the Golf being known tech will have a larger profit margin indeed. In the other hand, most of the extras in the id3 are shared technology anyways.

leetcrew 43 days ago [-]
yikes, you'd have to be really committed to buying an EV to choose that over a golf R at that price. I guess the tax credit softens things a bit.
perardi 43 days ago [-]
And I’m sure the CO2 taxes and fuel taxes in Europe weight the equation as well. But yeah, quite the price difference at the sticker.
43 days ago [-]
spockz 43 days ago [-]
See my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25876431, at least in the Netherlands the price difference for the same trim is negligible. Moreover, you might still be eligible for the €4K subsidy from the government.
joking 42 days ago [-]
maybe not by itself, but it reduces the average emissions for the fleet so they are able to sell other vehicles with more margin.
walshemj 43 days ago [-]
Some pre ww2 generations of ICE's lasted for decades after ww2 the British O series was one mentioned when I did mech eng at collage in the 1980's
btmiller 43 days ago [-]
I just bought a PHEV from Volvo and I love it. It gives me the flexibility to roam around town on pure electric while also providing the range I need to go hiking in remote areas.

A lot of the Seattle area only has street parking on residential streets. I'm curious how these folks are ever going to go full EV.

mdasen 43 days ago [-]
As someone who lives with street parking in a city, I've found that I actually tend to drive less than 300 miles in a month. There's 7.2 amp charging at the grocery store that I go to so I can top-up there while shopping. There's also charging stations in a bunch of the public parking places around town. It wouldn't be carefree to go all-electric, but it also doesn't seem like it would be too much of an imposition on my life.

Likewise, high-speed charging from Tesla Superchargers, Electrify America, and certainly others by 2030 can give an 80% charge in around half an hour. Again, it certainly isn't perfect, but it feels like I could work with it.

However, the big thing is that we're going to need to see a change in our cities that will kinda render a lot of this moot. Street parking, parking in general, and car ownership/use in cities is going to have to decline. Our cities are drowning under parking infrastructure. Everyone is afraid of new housing because new housing brings competition for parking spaces and increased traffic. If we're going to actually make cities a sustainable place to live, it's going to need to mean a lot fewer cars.

Housing prices in cities like Seattle, the Bay Area, Los Angeles, NYC, Boston, and DC are already sky-high. I know that a lot of techies can afford to live there, but raising a family becomes expensive when 1,200 square feet starts above a million. If we add new housing, we realistically can't add a lot of new parking to accommodate an influx of people with cars. Even if we mandate parking minimums for new housing (which is bad), that still means less parking available per car at everywhere you're driving to; it still means increased traffic that the roads can't accommodate (and there isn't space to just expand the roads).

Plus, as cities try to reduce traffic deaths and accommodate more road users, even fewer cars can be accommodated. A lot of cities are reducing the speed limit to 25 MPH, introducing protected bike lanes, adding traffic calming devices, removing parking spaces that would block drivers from seeing pedestrians, etc. Cities are taking back some car infrastructure and returning it to use for people. Likewise, businesses that are now sitting on incredibly valuable land that is being under-used as parking are likely going to pressure local governments to let them turn those parking lots into better uses of that land.

I remember the white-flight and the jobs that followed out into the suburbs. For those that remained in a city, they might have to commute out of the city to Redmond for their job and so parking was essential. Today, Amazon and others are setting up shop in Seattle.

For hiking, maybe it's reasonable to just rent a car for the day/weekend. I know that makes it seems like you're having to pay for the trip, but you were always having to pay. Cars will generally be $500/mo all-in on the cheap side of things, never mind an Audi or Volvo.

Ultimately, dealing with global warming and other challenges will require a certain amount of change in the way we set things up and live our lives. I think this is the reality that people often don't want to acknowledge - that what currently exists can't really continue existing for the kind of world we want and need to be. Electric cars lower emissions a good bit, but there's still a lot of emissions in manufacturing, a lot of particulate matter from tires and brakes, a lot of emissions from road-building and repair, a huge amount of emissions from concrete for parking garages, a large death toll from traffic fatalities, emissions from the fact that many trees that won't exist to accommodate car infrastructure, emissions from air conditioning as more car infrastructure means making cities greater heat islands... Plus, how do we accommodate the growth of our cities?

I think the answer to your question is that we're likely going to have to make changes to our cities and how we live in them rather than figuring out how street-parkers go full EV.

pmontra 43 days ago [-]
> For hiking, maybe it's reasonable to just rent a car for the day/weekend. I know that makes it seems like you're having to pay for the trip, but you were always having to pay.

Agreed, but people work more like this:

1. I already paid for my car, so I use it kind of for free, except gas.

2. I have to rent a car for $50 a day to go hiking, mmm, that's an extra $50. Maybe I'll do something closer to home in the range of my EV.

Also don't underestimate the convenience of leaving from home at any time in the day or the night and returning there vs driving to get the rental car, go through the paperworks, and again when returning it. It can easily add a couple of hours of friction.

maccard 43 days ago [-]
> Also don't underestimate the convenience of leaving from home at any time in the day or the night and returning there vs driving to get the rental car, go through the paperworks, and again when returning it. It can easily add a couple of hours of friction.

There are some car clubs in the city I live in. You sign up in advance, give them your details/card, and use an app to book the car. They're scattered all over the city, and you book it by the hour and pay for mileage. You get a fuel card, and are asked not to leave it back empty. If you pick one up empty, fill it up, and tell the app and they'll nag the previous person about it (but I only had to do this once in the 2 years I used it). It's great!

When I signed up at first it was great, there were 5 cars within 1/2 a mile of me. 2 years later, there were still 5 cars within 1/2 a mile of me, but the number of people using the service had increased so there was no availability on a weekend.

On my current street there's ~100 cars parked on it, and at least 10 of them haven't moved in the last week (my own included). If we replaced (even) half of those cars with for-hire cars, it would be a perfectly usable system for me.

> 1. I already paid for my car, so I use it kind of for free, except gas.

If you're not using your car for work, then this doesn't apply really. Even assuming you own it outright, maintenance/checks/cleaning/washing my current car are in the region of 30-40 bucks a month.

adonovan 43 days ago [-]
> On my current street there's ~100 cars parked on it, and at least 10 of them haven't moved in the last week (my own included). If we replaced (even) half of those cars with for-hire cars, it would be a perfectly usable system for me.

Yes, this. If cities are going to donate half of our road space to car storage, it should be to cars usable by everyone, not private ones.

End free parking and build more car share schemes.

o-__-o 43 days ago [-]
>end free parking

Well you could make parking metered. And residents could pay an additional tax to receive a permit to park without restriction. Then you are no longer donating half of your road space and I won’t be forced to share my car

maccard 42 days ago [-]
This is already the case in most cities in the UK, and where I (GP) live. A residents permit is £1-300/year, and hourly parking is ~3-4GBP/hour 9-6Mon to Sat. The parking spots are still full all day, every day.

> I won't be forced to share my car This is a selfish way of looking at it, and exactly why these schemes aren't growing. I'm more than happy to share my vehicle with others, but the companies managing these schemes need to actually make sure they keep up with the demand.

maccard 42 days ago [-]
> End free parking and build more car share schemes.

This isn't free parking, it's heavily subsidised (residents permits for my area are £100-£300 p/a depending on car emissions). If you go maybe half a mile farther out of the city it is free, but there's even less of these car share scheme spaces available.

carlmr 43 days ago [-]
Yeah, that's one of the main benefits of having a car for me, spontaneity. I drive 2/3 miles for climbing, hiking and skiing, only about 1/3 for work.

And I would miss out on a lot of outdoor sports if it wasn't a "sunk cost".

I do think hybrids are kind of the ideal trade off until we have much much better infrastructure and battery technology.

1) You can go electric to work/shopping/city, and only switch to gasoline when you go out of town. 2) you don't need to spend 10k for a new battery when it's gone bad. 3) you don't need to be scared about finding a place to charge.

o-__-o 43 days ago [-]
>don’t spend 10k for a new battery

Why not just buy a smaller more efficient car without the battery in the first place? You would save more than 10k...

randcraw 43 days ago [-]
Of course, competing with the reengineering of cities you propose is the trend toward remote work which I think will only grow. Most of the well-heeled jobs that have driven up the cost of housing in large cities can be done elsewhere. When the choice is to pay $1M for a 1200 sq ft apartment in the city vs the same amount in rural New Hampshire to get a castle with a barn on an acre, the funding needed to reengineer cities may flow elsewhere.
epa 43 days ago [-]
Car use decline for the poor but stay the same for the rich?
stjohnswarts 42 days ago [-]
Solid State batteries offer much higher speed charging and I suspect most manufacturers would move towards those.
Maarten88 43 days ago [-]
> A lot of the Seattle area only has street parking on residential streets. I'm curious how these folks are ever going to go full EV.

It is funny how people in the US expect exactly nothing from their government/city. Does nobody think they could provide shared charging infrastructure for people who live there?

sloreti 43 days ago [-]
Or you take the view that if a city is investing in transportation infrastructure, it should focus on public transportation instead of building infrastructure for private vehicles that degrade the urban experience.
scotth 43 days ago [-]
Or maybe do both? I don't see Americans getting rid of their cars, so look at it as harm reduction.
jniedrauer 43 days ago [-]
I would. And if I would, so would others.
kempbellt 43 days ago [-]
I wouldn't. And I'm sure many others wouldn't either for similar reasons.

Public transportation is great and I love using it when it makes sense, but in many cities it does not compete with the convenience and security of having a reliable personal vehicle.

The only place I felt public transportation was good enough to go without my own car was NYC - but I lived on a great train line that ran every few minutes reliably. I also didn't have any dependents that I was responsible for. Many people who lived nearby used the train but still had their own cars as a backup.

Even with how convenient it was for shuttling myself around, using it when needing to carry anything like groceries becomes difficult, and made me wish I had a car. Especially during rush hour where sitting is almost impossible.

I'm all for improving public transportation, but I do not see it being a replacement for personal vehicles in every way.

908B64B197 43 days ago [-]
The issue is that public transit generally optimizes for throughput, and latency suffers.

The wealthier people are, the more latency sensitive they become.

criddell 43 days ago [-]
Maybe the street chargers could be run for profit with the proceeds used to subsidize public transportation?
rootusrootus 43 days ago [-]
The city should focus on what makes the most sense for their citizens. In some places that means public transit, in some places it means EV chargers.
aaronbrethorst 43 days ago [-]
I take it you have not experienced the consistent lack of vision or competence from the last several Seattle city mayors[1].

Does nobody think they could provide shared charging infrastructure for people who live there?

I say this as a dyed-in-the-wool progressive: no, no one here thinks that the mayor of Seattle would be able to do this.

We have a mayoral election coming up in November. There's an outside chance that things might change for the better, but I'm not really holding my breath.

---

[1] Excepting McGinn, who I thought got a really raw deal.

posguy 43 days ago [-]
McGinn made a few cushy positions for his friends and did not get much done. Very similar to Greg Nickels IMO, who was only ousted after his cronies that ran SDOT totally bodged Snowpocalypse, followed by him coming out and saying he thought they did a B- job despite most of the city being trapped in snow for a week...
adolph 43 days ago [-]
Given the economics of personal EV cars (they are expensive), wouldn't it be difficult to justify the investment (spending) given a growing wealth divide (spending everybody's money on rich folks to enable buying expensive things)?

I acknowledge that EV transport has a chicken/egg problem of standing up a support infrastructure as adoption grows and that there are collective interests in decreasing point of service emissions and shifting energy generation away from sources with harmful emissions. However, the problem can be viewed from perspectives outside the personal car paradigm. Why would a rationally goal-oriented city or similar organization spend money/effort on supporting the personal ownership model instead of improving transportation for all people? For example, the same decrease in emissions might be achieved by improved bus/tram service, or public/private partnership to provide EV charging for car sharing services.

What are the cities that have provided street-side charging, what were their goals and by what criteria did they decide to do street-side charging instead of choosing other methods to achieve their goals?

bogidon 43 days ago [-]
EVs are projected to get cheaper than internal combustion by mid-decade [0]. There are lots of American city neighborhoods where EVs will be inaccessible without street-side charging.

In response to GP, I definitely expect the US government to take a lead on building charging infrastructure (especially with a federal administration that doesn't actively dismiss climate change). A failure to demonstrate competence building green infrastructure in the next few years will quite possibly lead me to seek greener pastures elsewhere (EU). Thankfully San Francisco included charging infrastructure and street-side charging in its 2019 EV roadmap [1].

That said, public transit is by far the better green tech. But since private vehicles won't be going away overnight, might as well transition them to something cleaner.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/22/electric...

[1] https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/files/reports-and-docume...

adolph 43 days ago [-]
What are concrete examples of "US government to take a lead on building charging infrastructure?" The feds leasing street-side right of way and installing chargers and payment infrastructure and also somehow increasing grid capacity? Spray and pray tax/borrowed money on whatever company has the best connected lobbyists? Something in between?

More to the point: to meet a climate change goal, why continue to subsidize the overprovisioning of transportation capability in the form of largely unused, quickly depreciating equipment with low watt to work efficiency? Is doing the same thing as before really going to move the needle to the goal? If asserted true, what proof or precedent is there?

bogidon 43 days ago [-]
> What are concrete examples of "US government to take a lead on building charging infrastructure?“

They don’t need to take over right of ways. The DOT (or whoever) could help by aiding standardization of chargers and payments, creating a program to fund design of street-side chargers, provide incentives (in the form of taxes perhaps) for cities to meet EV infra quotas.

> why continue to subsidize the overprovisioning of transportation capability in the form of largely unused, quickly depreciating equipment with low watt to work efficiency?

Oh trust me, I really feel this. Maybe you’re right that any incrementalism in reducing carbon emissions is wrong, and we should go all in on the optimal solution, ie ban cars and redesign cities. But even if the govt did radically depart from the past 50 years of stalled infrastructure, and went all in, it would still take a long time until an alternative to the personal vehicle is practical to all urban/suburban dwellers. Long enough for a switch to EVs to be unjustifiable from a climate perspective, probably (I would very much like numbers)

But yes, I am just as tired of the mantra of lesser of two evils. But maybe that’s just how democracy is destined to unfold.

PaulDavisThe1st 43 days ago [-]
I worry a bit about the physics/mechanics of "charging" infrastructure.

Last week some company announced (in some sense) non-graphite anodes that will (theoretically) make 5 minute recharges of a car battery system possible. Given the amount of energy stored in the system, this is a LOT of juice to have flowing down a wire.

Now imagine that it's about that time of day when a bunch of cars get parked curbside, and plug in to the "new" charging infrastructure. I don't know the numbers, I think we're talking about insane current levels, meaning insane wire sizes being buried in the street.

Anyone know anything about this?

opencl 43 days ago [-]
Charging a car-sized battery in 5 minutes requires nearly a megawatt of power.

Even if this tech becomes widespread in cars I highly doubt the infrastructure will ever be in place for it be something that the average person can use on a regular basis.

It seems likely that when EVs become the norm people will mostly use slower charging while parked and pay extra for fast charging on long distance trips only. But widespread adoption will still probably require some fairly significant upgrades of power generation infrastructure.

kridsdale1 43 days ago [-]
We all somehow managed to accept the 5 Megajoules of energy in an average gas station storage tank. The wattage and voltage are a big concern vs the (false?) safety sense we have from pumping petrol. But that could be addressed with some well engineers locking mechanism. Gas stations explode if you smoke by them.
PaulDavisThe1st 43 days ago [-]
Sure, but we use relatively dangerous liquid fuel transports to deliver that 5Mj to the stations, which manage to fit (albeit with some real risk) onto regular roads.

You can't deliver that kind of power to a charging station easily based on the electrical infrastructure we currently have.

At least this my understanding.

reportingsjr 43 days ago [-]
Yes, the way tesla handles this is by having batteries at their charging stations to average out the current draw from the grid.
fy20 43 days ago [-]
The city can provide rights to install EV chargers on the street to private companies for free, in exchange for a share of the revenues. In Europe almost all EV chargers are run by companies vs governments - which they must see as a for-profit investment, as they are for-profit companies -, so if it works here, there's no reason why it can't work there too. The revenue the city receives from EV charging can be used to improve public transportation, so everybody wins.

Don't forget EVs are beneficial for everyone in terms of less pollution, so cities should be encouraging residents to purchase EVs over ICE with small incentives (in my city you don't need to pay for street parking).

throw1234651234 43 days ago [-]
Heh, writing about "EV cars* on your personal PC computer".

*vehicle cars

minhaz23 41 days ago [-]
hi! i hope you dont mind the random solicitation but intense searching for answers led to a comment of yours in a very old thread that struck a chord with me, i hoped to find an email or way to contact you but only found that you are using a throwaway to remain anonymous and that your tone/language/interests/concerns (from the little ive seen) are more relatable than i expected is there a way we can chat today without me imposing on your privacy/anonimity? a secure way to chat for you? if you didnt mind me picking your brain of course. thank you!
devoutsalsa 43 days ago [-]
American here. We expect to be milked like dairy cows.
slg 43 days ago [-]
The funniest part is that this is paired with a lack of belief in the free market. Think of all the real estate that is taken up with gas stations. Do we think those are all going to exist forever despite a shrinking customer base? As society transfers to more EVs, gas stations can transition to EV charging stations. Those stations can be denser too since a charger doesn't require much more room than a parking space. Combine that with the trend of faster and faster charging and the need for a dedicated home charger will decrease over time.
cardiffspaceman 43 days ago [-]
I keep hearing that gas stations aren't great businesses as they are, and if they do make money it is not on fuel. I found one article that is particularly negative, but not necessarily objective [1].

The closest gas station to me, on foot, has converted its mechanics bays to a great taco shop, its "office" to a liquor store with a great selection of spirits, and it has a full-size car wash operation wrapped around it.

So it seems like the most likely conversion would be that the gas station would swap gas pumps for chargers, in phases. Of course the best layout for chargers where charging takes the time it currently does is not the same as the best layout for fuel pumps, so it will be interesting to see how the transition goes.

So at present all the gas stations that I know of that seem viable are embedded in businesses that take up even more space, and the retail fuel business is just a part of it.

[1] https://www.franchise.city/buy-a-gas-station

slg 43 days ago [-]
Many of those side businesses might be even more profitable with EV chargers as the main attraction rather than gas stations. EV charging doesn't require you to stay by the vehicle like gas fueling does (or at least is supposed to). Having a property with a constant flow of people who have 5-15 minutes of free time sounds like a great way to make money for a taco shop, liquor store, general convenience store, or any number of businesses.
randcraw 43 days ago [-]
Spare time is becoming ever more precious these days. It's tilting at windmills to suggest that popup businesses near a charging station can hope to soak up the excess time lost to recharging in ways that most of us will happily adopt.

The only viable path forward for EVs is to reduce recharge time or make it invisible (do it outside rush hour). Until then I see no way for them to displace hybrids as primary family cars.

slg 43 days ago [-]
>Spare time is becoming ever more precious these days.

I feel like this is something that everyone has been saying for decades and I don't really know what it means in practice. There are countless businesses that are successful soaking up excess time that people happily participate in. The mobile gaming business for example is an industry worth tens of billions of dollars that simply didn't exist a couple decades ago.

>The only viable path forward for EVs is to reduce recharge time or make it invisible (do it outside rush hour). Until then I see no way for them to displace hybrids as primary family cars.

Hybrid market share has likely already peaked and they never became the primary family car for Americans. Hybrid's share of new cars only ever topped 3% once and that was in 2013. Plus charge time has already been decreasing for EVs and Teslas have gotten to the point that an average American would probably only need to charge for 10-20 minutes once a week at one of their highest powered Superchargers. That really isn't the inconvenience that some people are making it out to be if there are other business at these charging locations that can keep people occupied.

zdragnar 43 days ago [-]
Given property tax rates, charging times have to drop pretty drastically, and they'll need a massive increase in power supply to handle the 15-20 cars supercharging simultaneously.

Gas stations currently make very little to almost nothing actually selling gas (something like 5-25 cents a gallon last I had heard). Almost all of their income is from also acting as a convenience store for snacks and drinks. They need people in and out as quick as possible, not loitering around for half an hour.

Basically, if charging time dropped to the 5 minute range, sure. I would hate to have to use one, though, given how busy gas stations already are during the day around here.

PaulDavisThe1st 43 days ago [-]
zdragnar 43 days ago [-]
That is A battery. The thermal management, safety mechanisms and infrastructure are fundamentally different when you are doing a dozen or two EV's worth or batteries simultaneously. I am not convinced that is practical in a consumer setting, or - to go back to the original topic - as a solution for people who don't have private parking to charge at.

As is noted elsewhere in the thread, it isn't simply a battery problem.

randcraw 43 days ago [-]
Intriguing. That would be a game changer. Of course, the next question is how soon before it can compete at the current battery's price point? If it ships in 2025 as the article suggests, it sounds like 2030 is likely the earliest it might widely replace today's batteries.
trophycase 43 days ago [-]
They'll have to change their business model. Half an hour is a very long time for an extremely captive audience. I'm very certain they can figure out a way to make money off of that.
Pick-A-Hill2019 43 days ago [-]
I would like to take that vision of the future you mention and add to it the concept of vertically stacking the fast-charging cars two or three vehicles high to double/triple your customer density. When you picture it mentally you can begin to see the financials start to make sense. If the underground fuel tanks can be properly decontaminated and repurposed as storage for uhhm storage batteries you have maximised your revenue generating space.

Being able to supply the “Ooomph” to fast charge 6 or 10 cars with a 5 minute vehicle turn around ( a la Tesla’s fast chargers) but also triple stacked with cars (hydraulic ramps, customer disembarks and uses the time to pay or shop). Chuck in the ‘free' storage space for your ballasting batteries and I can see a great market for buying up old gas stations located in inner city areas - especially those that are currently car washes, vacant lots etc.

bgorman 43 days ago [-]
Gas stations in cities are being converted to apartment/condo complexes, not EV charging stations. The economics just don't allow wasting prime real estate on something like a EV charging station.
cbhl 43 days ago [-]
$dayjob does provide shared charging infrastructure, and discovered there wasn't enough amperage going to the office park to run all of the chargers it does have at full speed. (Each charger can charge one car at full speed, but if both cables are plugged in, it will charge each at a reduced speed.) They currently have ~60 chargers on a 5-building campus. Given the square footage of the campus and the parking minimums set by the city, they'd need 25x that in order to convert every single parking spot with a charger.

We'd need some pretty serious upgrades to our electrical transmission infrastructure to get L2 charging speeds from "every lamppost" as some would propose.

adolph 43 days ago [-]
Is there a way of overprovisioning the physical car endpoints compared to the resources available to the group?

Within a parking garage is there a method of metering/constraining individual charging nodes so that the overall consumption does not exceed the amps available to the garage?

Say for example, all my neighborhood household electric meters have some zigbee coms that allow the electric co to snoop on individual usage closer to realtime. Do EVs not have a method for the charger to understand the EV's % of full charge?

cbhl 43 days ago [-]
To an extent, yes -- the current infrastructure is already over-provisioned by a factor of 2. (Each charger has two ports; if one car is plugged in it goes at full speed, if both are plugged in they get half. Each station has 4 parking spots, so that you can move the charging cord over to the next car when you're done charging your car.)

But when we start talking about "every parking spot" scale, then two constraints come to mind: (1) the charging rate is too low to be effective (L1 charging over "regular" 110V wall outlets gets you only a few miles of charge an hour), and (2) if you have too much current going through some common section of cable, it will blow a circuit breaker, or worse, overheat and cause an electrical fire (same as if you plug too many things into an extension cord at home or work).

Edit: I think the current state of the art for sharing is "push notification to tell the driver to move their car" because there is a non-trivial capital outlay for chargers even if you have enough electricity. So any scheme that involves all the cars being plugged in and some intelligent switching of who should go first still requires considerable capital costs, even before you get to upgrading the big transmission wires.

leetcrew 43 days ago [-]
in the case of the office park, it's probably fine for the cars to charge at a reduced rate, as long as everyone has enough juice to get home at the end of the day.

in the case of a general purpose parking garage, this is less okay. I don't want to park in a garage for an hour to shop and not know whether my car will be at 30% or 80% charge when I get back. this is barely better than not having charging infrastructure at all.

jedberg 43 days ago [-]
This is the United States. The best we expect is that the city will contract with an exclusive provider who will be the only ones that can install chargers on every street and then charge us to use them.
dexterdog 43 days ago [-]
They should charge you to use them. The problem is they will charge you way more than they should because of the exclusive deal they have based on the bribes they paid to the city.
notJim 43 days ago [-]
Also, the provider will collect the money, but not actually install many chargers.
kevin_thibedeau 43 days ago [-]
Or maintain them.
technofiend 43 days ago [-]
I mean on a serious note, yes I personally think it's possible to do. But heavy charging cables have enough copper you're basically leaving a few dollars for every person with a pair of bolt cutters and a shopping cart. Not to mention vandalism or ICEing due to someone wanting to protest electric cars. I'm not saying it's impossible; just you need to design in making them robust and vandalism, theft and denial-of-service resistant.

On a more humorous note my first mental image had a cyberpunk vibe: someone walking around the city with an unregulated nuke generator (stolen recycled waste or maybe a stolen weapon) selling electricity by the watt from a repurposed hot dog cart. Or maybe WattWallahs if it turns into a semi informal business.

I believe EVs will come into their own as battery technology improves to the point that charging is no longer a multi hour affair. Whether that's the Bill Gates battery, super capacitors, hot swap battery clubs or some combination thereof remains to be seen.

jiofih 43 days ago [-]
Charging is already not a multi-hour affair. 30m-45m with current fast chargers.

But you don’t need fast charging on public streets, you charge while parked.

technofiend 43 days ago [-]
You do if the only place to park is on public streets.
Symbiote 43 days ago [-]
I think the discussion is about people who park on the street outside their house or apartment. This is very common in some cities.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/oct/05/electric-car-w...

dontyouknow 43 days ago [-]
core-questions 43 days ago [-]
> But heavy charging cables have enough copper you're basically leaving a few dollars for every person with a pair of bolt cutters and a shopping cart.

This is an absolutely critical point. We can dream up all the beautiful systems we want, but as long as they have some reliance on a high-trust society, they will fail in America. America is a state in decline; the high point of trust was decades ago, and now most Americans live in a situation where they can't leave anything unlocked lest it be stolen.

A lot of pie-in-the-sky sharing service ideas fall flat when we realize that people abuse shared property as much as they can. People like to suggest a future where electric, self-driving cars will be summoned on demand and show up at our doors, obviating the need to own your own vehicle; but the insides of these vehicles will be filthy, and the utility of having emergency stuff carried along with you (from a change of clothes on upward) will be lost. We can imagine banning people from such a service, but we can also imagine someone enacting a law banning banning....

reportingsjr 43 days ago [-]
> America is a state in decline; the high point of trust was decades ago

Can you provide a source for that? All of the sources I see show that we're just above 1960s levels of property crime and trending downward.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

numpad0 43 days ago [-]
Bit tangential but I’ve been wondering how street parking thing works, because in my country you can’t register a car without a “declaration of storage space” form and storage address in it has to be a non-bogus private property no more than 2km(1.2mi) away from your home address.

To me it’s a no-brainer to have such a regulation, but how do other people/cities/country cope without it? You apply for parking permission for “1234 Hacker Rd. space 3A” or do you just find an open spot and consider it yours, like you do for a chair in a cafe?

sithadmin 43 days ago [-]
US cities where 'street-only' parking is common generally use a combination of approaches in different areas (sometimes a linear portion of a street; sometimes a 'zone' consisting of a geographic area bounded by certain streets).

Approaches I have encountered are:

* Meter-only parking - reserved exclusively for short-term use, usually in highly commercialized areas; long-term use by residents generally prohibited

* Unrestricted street parking - Any car with a valid registration may park in any space not otherwise designated as off-limits (e.g. loading zones, metered zones, specially designated zones for those with mobility impairments). May require periodic relocation to facilitate street sweeping, snow plowing, or other activities sanctioned by the municipality (e.g. clearing space for loading/unloading moving trucks or construction equipment).

* Zoned street parking - Parking in the zone follows the same general pattern of 'unrestricted' above, except vehicles need a specially-issued identifier (usually a sticker) from the municipality to park in the zone.

* Reserved street parking - In conventional circumstances, usually limited to parking spaces for those with mobility impairments, or some special circumstance (e.g. a city might lease spots to a car-sharing service to improve transport access for residents). Sometimes found in cases where there are parking spaces directly off the street (e.g. "pull-in angle parking") in less heavily trafficked areas/neighborhoods.

drewzero1 43 days ago [-]
Often in US cities with otherwise unrestricted street parking, there is a time limit/number of days before a vehicle is considered "abandoned" and ticketed or towed. So even if you don't need to drive your car, you need to move it periodically (partially to demonstrate that the vehicle is operational).

In my city street parking is free but time restricted. Downtown streets have 2 or 4 hour parking limits, and street parking is not allowed between 2AM and 5AM. I like not having to worry about meters but it's always a pain to wake up in the middle of the night and remember I forgot to put my car in the driveway.

ativzzz 43 days ago [-]
In the US, depends on the city and probably on the neighborhood. A lot of my friends in NYC for example don't even have cars.

I've lived in Texas a long time and parking space in residential areas was never a problem. Nearly every apartment complex comes with a giant parking lot and private houses either have a garage/driveway or the street is isolated enough to where on street parking isn't an issue, but it's practically impossible or at least extremely inconvenient to live in Texas without a car.

There are a few places where parking is tight, like for instance at a university living space,so you either have to pay for a space somewhere or get a house/apt with dedicated parking (a lot of students don't really need cars though) or take the chance that you will have to play the street parking lottery.

sithadmin 43 days ago [-]
>I've lived in Texas a long time and parking space in residential areas was never a problem. Nearly every apartment complex comes with a giant parking lot

So prevalent in Texas that a now-popular building architype in North American real estate is known as the 'Texas Donut', whereby a midrise apartment building 'wraps' around a parking structure in the middle of the plot.

jfengel 43 days ago [-]
I didn't know the name of it, but see a lot of those going up. Thank you.

It makes a lot of sense. The parking is close to where you live, but out of sight for everybody except residents. It makes for a nice-looking neighborhood. And you get to park indoors, out of the weather.

sithadmin 43 days ago [-]
It's certainly a convenient arrangement. My only complaint about the design is that if there is an air-gap between the apartment building(s) and the parking garage, the garage tends to accumulate a ton of dust/atmospheric fallout due to the surrounding building restricting wind currents. The garage floors are almost always disgusting, and cars parked inside become filthy much quicker than if they were simply parked outdoors.
na85 43 days ago [-]
In Vancouver BC for example it's common for residential streets to be "parking for residents only" and bylaw officers will ticket/tow any vehicle that is lacking a pass. The pass comes with your house/apartment.
leetcrew 43 days ago [-]
in general you just try to find an open space near where you live. some neighborhoods have "permit parking" where residents are entitled to a permit that allows them to park in the general area where they live. if you don't have a permit, these spaces are paid parking and/or limited time parking (eg, 2 hour max).
Nullabillity 43 days ago [-]
Cafe style.
aidenn0 43 days ago [-]
> It is funny how people in the US expect exactly nothing from their government/city. Does nobody think they could provide shared charging infrastructure for people who live there?

We expect them to propose charging infrastructure, think they have a consensus, and then get sued by someone for some stupid reason, and then 10-15 years later break ground on something 1/3 of what people need.

California is much worse than the east-coast in this regard, but there's a 12 lane freeway bridge in the DC area that is a draw-bridge because the original plan of a suspension bridge was fought by people who complained that it would be an eyesore.

klyrs 43 days ago [-]
As I understand it, level 3 chargers need quite a lot of infrastructure, and maintenance ain't free. Putting one on, say, every residential block would be a huge expense, and there's a chicken/egg problem where the demand doesn't justify such a step yet... but if everybody gets on board, one per block wouldn't be enough. And right now, folks get tax breaks for their EVs instead of getting taxed for necessary infrastructure improvements.

This is the sort of infrastructure work that a Green New Deal should support. But that's a political poison pill, as supporting energy sector jobs is "patriotic" if it's carbon based and "communism" otherwise.

scythe 43 days ago [-]
If the vehicles are parked overnight and mostly driven to work, you don't need anything like a level 3 charger. A 220V/12A outlet is probably enough. That won't give you a full charge, but it's enough for most urban commutes. (And making this infrastructure available should make PHEV owners buy less gasoline, which is good!)
klyrs 43 days ago [-]
Yeah, that's a good point. I can only imagine fighting with neighbors over access to that one charger.... maybe banks of L1 would suffice for most daily drivers.
aerostable_slug 43 days ago [-]
And with current technology (pun intended), your battery will last significantly longer.
PaulDavisThe1st 43 days ago [-]
Excellent reminder/point. Thanks!
throwawayboise 43 days ago [-]
> supporting energy sector jobs is "patriotic"

On day 1 of the new US administration, the Keystone XL project was killed. If it's a poison pill it must taste pretty good.

perardi 43 days ago [-]
Yeah, building out high-speed chargers on every block cannot possibly be cheap.

You could have an extra fee on top of vehicle stickers for EVs…and even as I type that, I can imagine the pitched screaming, from both sides of the aisle. “Why are you suppressing clean vehicles?!” “More big city taxes?!”

na85 43 days ago [-]
I mean if you accept that fossil fuel emissions are bad for the planet, why on earth would you want to disincentivize purchasing electric vehicles?
43 days ago [-]
dpoochieni 43 days ago [-]
Nah, too busy inefficiently and ineffectually spending on the homeless to care about actual tax payers.
thomasedwards 43 days ago [-]
From the photos and reports I’ve seen, they’re not giving a dime to anybody that needs a dime.
e40 43 days ago [-]
I live in a similar place to Seattle, and I see people laying charge cords across the sidewalk all the time. With nothing covering them, making them a tripping hazard. Just blows me away. This is ripe for insurance scams, but it is a genuine problem, for pushing strollers, wheelchairs, and pedestrians!
perardi 43 days ago [-]
You can go full Toronto on it and string an extension cord out your window.

https://imgur.com/a/w3y7ow5

(Not a meme. This is down the street from me.)

aidenn0 43 days ago [-]
That chain doesn't look nearly heavy enough to secure something two people could lift into a flatbed truck. Is theft just less of an issue in Toronto than other cities?
perardi 43 days ago [-]
Pfff, no, not judging from the number of bicycles I know have been stolen.

This is a slightly decrepit stretch of the east side of the city, so, don’t assume “trust” when you can assume “too high to think this through”.

jacquesm 43 days ago [-]
You'd be more worried about the open window.
notJim 43 days ago [-]
There are people doing this in my neighborhood in Portland as well, including with very fancy cars.
sergeykish 43 days ago [-]
I have a neighbour who is charging his Nissan Leaf living on 2 floor of 15 storey building.
eulers_secret 43 days ago [-]
Another adoption hurdle: A lot of folks live in apartments as well.

I've accepted I won't be going electric until I buy a house. There is no way my complex will install chargers, until it's required somehow. No garages here. House prices are hovering around $500,000 in my area. With a traditional mortgage, 20% down is a lot to save up (100K).

--

This has made electric cars a unique form of social signaling: It basically states "I'm a homeowner!" (or can afford house rental, which is also very expensive... or went with an FHA loan/can afford that mortgage payment)

There are some apartments that have charging ports, but they're very high-end, with rents comparable to a single-family detached house anyways. They're also very rare in my area. Sure you can charge at whatever ports are available (not many here), but (IMO) it just doesn't make much sense to go electric and not have the ability to charge your car at home.

43 days ago [-]
t0mas88 43 days ago [-]
Doesn't your city provide charging points on street parking? That's quite common in European cities, both in residential areas and public parking near shops.

Used to even be the case in Amsterdam that you didn't have to pay for parking if you were paying for charging. But they quickly changed that because charging isn't nearly as profitable as the parking fees.

eulers_secret 43 days ago [-]
I live in a smallish suburb, and unfortunately, they do not provide street chargers (I'm also signed up for the city's newsletter and there is never discussion about it).

I checked where chargers are located in my area, and it's mostly gas stations and some shop chargers in the more posh suburb a few miles away. None of my local grocery stores have chargers. The posh stores are too expensive for me to shop at continually - I can't/won't afford to shop at whole foods for my normal food... but they have chargers.

Even if they were provided, I (and most others here) don't park on the street - but in the lot attached to my apartment (built in the late 80's). I'm also lucky I don't pay for parking (or rather it's part of my inexpensive rent).

ip26 43 days ago [-]
You could look at home chargers around you and strike up a friendship.

Although, certainly if you rack up hundreds of miles every day it won’t work that well.

That said, isn’t part of the allure of apartments being close to your destinations? Walking to the park, a 1-mile trip to the grocery, etc.

eulers_secret 43 days ago [-]
> That said, isn’t part of the allure of apartments being close to your destinations? Walking to the park, a 1-mile trip to the grocery, etc.

It can be, but there is another reason to chose living in an apartment: It's cheap. I live here because it's inexpensive (< $1000/mo) and I can save that large down payment quicker.

My apartment is not convenient: 45 minutes from my work, 15 minutes from an affordable grocery store. But there is a very nice park within walking distance.

> You could look at home chargers around you and strike up a friendship.

This is true, I could. But that's a lot less convenient than buying another hybrid when the time comes. Gasoline is 5 minutes away, refueling is fast, and I only need to do it every other week.

the_only_law 43 days ago [-]
Don’t know where OP is located but there are plenty of apartments located in low density areas where that’s impractical.
totheloop 43 days ago [-]
It's true, but of course, a solvable problem, and one everyone is aware of. Chargers have grown massively in the last few years along highway routes, but expansion in the number of fast chargers available to renters (within cities, at shopping centers and apartments, etc.) is already where the major players are focusing now. And Biden's admin stated they want half a million more chargers in the USA (which is an order of magnitude more than currently exist), so we can expect this to improve quickly. You may not, in other words, have to wait until you buy a house.
closeparen 43 days ago [-]
The effort involved in using public chargers as your only/primary source is pretty high. It's not a quick detour, but something you need to plan your day around (plan to spend a while at a store near the charge, etc). And then you may get there and find out someone has beaten you to it. With just three people in line, each charging for 45m, that's a >2h wait! IMO you have to be really committed and highly value the fact that your car is electric, to put up with this.
namdnay 43 days ago [-]
The problem with me for PHEVs is that you have all the mechanical problems of an ICE. The main attraction of EVs is no longer having gearboxes, engines, turbos, cambelts etc
nradov 43 days ago [-]
Well that's the theory. In practice the Toyota Prius with its highly complex hybrid drivetrain is far more reliable and durable than any Tesla. Proper engineering and build quality counts for a lot.
tyfon 43 days ago [-]
Where do you find this data?

I'm quite curious, most of my co-workers (and me) drive Teslas and there has yet been any drive train issues in any of ours. Two of them have gone over 500.000 km. But what I see is pure anecdotal.

All I can find is statistics on general repairs not drive train specifically and even here tesla is quite high but not on par with Toyota. Audi seems to be one of the worst actually.

aerostable_slug 43 days ago [-]
Anecdotal as well, but I used to be involved with some SAE working groups on EVs and hybrids, and re: the Prius, let's just say just about every engineer I spoke to, regardless of company, was very complimentary.

I'm not going to out who said what, and note that was 8..? years ago and everyone has undoubtedly improved since then. That said, it was interesting to see near-universal acceptance of its excellence (of course some joked that theirs were actually fun to drive, which was a fair observation). As an amusing aside, at one working group dinner I had to explain to a couple of let's just say European engineers what "Vegan" meant on the menu. Hilarity ensued.

nradov 43 days ago [-]
tyfon 43 days ago [-]
Do you have one for drive train? I only see general issues there. The old model S they have in this comparison had a lot of baby issues with other stuff, but very few drive train issues.
namdnay 43 days ago [-]
Yes that's a very good point
Gregoriy 43 days ago [-]
The other side of the story when it breaks it's really hard to find a specialist ;(
notJim 43 days ago [-]
I feel like EV boosters overstate these problems. I have a 12 year-old Toyota with 200k+ miles, and the only parts that have ever worn out have been suspension and brake parts (wheel bearing and brake rotors/pads), which of course an EV will have as well. It's never had problems with the engine or transmission. There are oil changes, and it'll be nice to skip that once I have an EV, but it's also like a 20 minute thing twice a year or so.
detaro 43 days ago [-]
The serial-hybrid kind (drive is electric, additional ICE drives a generator that charges a battery) can avoid at least some of that complexity. I'm curious to see if that's going to be a somewhat common thing, or if it's just too much extra stuff and weight compared to just packing in more batteries instead.
Forbo 43 days ago [-]
Since Chevy killed the Volt, it looks like they're focusing on just going straight electric. Which I find unfortunate, I was hoping more manufacturers would take the series hybrid approach.
thesmok 40 days ago [-]
Honda makes series hybrid now: CR-V, Accord, Jazz. Accoring to reviews, they are more efficient than Toyotas.
detaro 43 days ago [-]
That's where the fast-charge options, ideally in places people go anyways, become important. You also don't have a petrol pump on the street and have to go out of your way for one, but doing that for electric isn't that feasible if it takes hours. 30 min quick-charge near somewhere you want to go anyways (shop, park, ...) makes it more viable.
chris11 43 days ago [-]
I'd still be worried about fast charging impacting battery life. I've heard reports that it can degrade batteries. And personally fast charging isn't too important to me, except for trips. I'd be fine charging at home, it is cheaper. So leaving it plugged in for awhile isn't a huge deal.
detaro 43 days ago [-]
> I'd be fine charging at home, it is cheaper.

Good for you, but not really relevant to the discussion of what to do for people that can't really charge at home now.

wrycoder 43 days ago [-]
Thirty minutes is too long. We need ten minutes.

Once a battery has sufficient capacity for the intended use, it’s charging time that counts.

For example, the battery capacity on my Apple watch is more than adequate. I’d like to see the charging time cut in half. Then it would charge enough while I’m shaving each morning.

clintonb 43 days ago [-]
> Thirty minutes is too long. We need ten minutes.

How is 30 minutes too long? If you plan your charging around the time you go to run errands, 30 minutes is probably adequate. This is especially true in pandemic times where a trip to get groceries is may be preceded by a 5-10 minute wait in line.

closeparen 43 days ago [-]
Other people will be ahead of you for a turn at the charger.
wrycoder 42 days ago [-]
That’s like leaving your car at the gas pump while you go shopping.

It takes five minutes to fill at a gas pump. Then you move on, and the next person fills up.

Until there’s a charge station at every parking spot, it’s not going to work. You have to stay close to the car while it’s charging. Works for the 7-11, but not for regular shopping.

clintonb 41 days ago [-]
> You have to stay close to the car while it’s charging. Works for the 7-11, but not for regular shopping.

What? No. I plug in my car. The charger locks so no one can disturb it. I do my shopping, and I come back, unplug, and move on.

Not everyone needs to charge all the time, so there doesn’t need to be one charger for every parking spot.

Many people seem to think about EV charging as analogous to refueling an ICE vehicle. They differ in the sense that EV charging today requires planning. Tesla’s navigation system makes this convenient for SuperChargers by showing the number of available spots at each charger. I use the PlugShare app to look at non-Tesla chargers when I want a little more charge but don’t need the speed of a SuperCharger/want to pay the premium.

I’ve owned a Model 3 for seven months now. I’ve only encountered one SuperCharger in 11K miles of travel (including a round trip from the Bay Area to Dallas, TX) that was completely busy. I drove to another one that was a little under 10 minutes away.

It’s also worth nothing that many folks charge at home. My apartment building has two chargers shared by about 12 EV drivers. Other apartment buildings have more chargers. Not everyone needs public chargers the same way nearly everyone needs a fuel station.

wrycoder 41 days ago [-]
I’m interested in buying a Tesla. I would be charging in my garage.

My impression is that many of the superchargers are in locations that are fine for travel, but not very convenient for shopping.

If I pull up to a charger and it’s busy, with the owner absent, how am I supposed to know the status of the recharge? Is there something equivalent to a running gas pump that I can look at to estimate when the owner will return? Or, is the best move to simply move on, if there’s no empty plug?

How do 12 EV manage to share 2 charge ports at an apartment? How do you know when it’s your “turn“? How long does your car stay plugged in, once you get the slot? Isn’t there conflict caused by impolite owners?

clintonb 40 days ago [-]
> My impression is that many of the superchargers are in locations that are fine for travel, but not very convenient for shopping.

This isn't true everywhere. In the Bay Area, I've used a few in shopping centers. Same for the few I used in Dallas. While traveling from the Bay to Dallas, most Superchargers were at gas stations which, as you say, are more convenient for travelers. It all depends on the density, which you can see at https://www.tesla.com/supercharger.

> If I pull up to a charger and it’s busy, with the owner absent, how am I supposed to know the status of the recharge? Is there something equivalent to a running gas pump that I can look at to estimate when the owner will return? Or, is the best move to simply move on, if there’s no empty plug?

Move to an open charger. I've been at locations with charger quantities ranging from 4 to 40. The car's navigation system will indicate the number of open chargers, and you can select appropriately.

> How do 12 EV manage to share 2 charge ports at an apartment? How do you know when it’s your “turn“? How long does your car stay plugged in, once you get the slot? Isn’t there conflict caused by impolite owners?

Ideally the charger status is available in an app (e.g., ChargePoint). I don't think mine is because the garage is private, but I have used chargers that are publicly-accessible at other apartment buildings because they were in the app.

I drive up to the level where the chargers are, and charge if I can. If I can't, I try again later. I charge when I'm near 30-40% until I get to 80%. Charge time, which depends on the power output of the charger, is usually 4 hours for the ~6.4kW chargers in my building. I have yet to have an issue with folks parking in the spot, but not charging or otherwise being impolite.

gambiting 43 days ago [-]
Yep, I've had the XC60 T8 for a year now and I love it. Either I'm not burning any petrol whatsoever or averaging 100-150mpg in my daily driving. I fill up once every 3-4 months so far. And I did a 1500 mile trip around Europe last summer too, like in any normal car. Absolutely fantastic.
chris11 43 days ago [-]
The 2021 Rav4 prime also looks really. It has an estimated 40+ mile EV range. That should take care of most of your daily trips. But at 50k Toyota has a lot of competition with EVs and other hybrids.
43 days ago [-]
cameldrv 43 days ago [-]
I know that there are a number of projects to put charging stations in streetlight poles. Even if, for cost reasons, this is just L1 charging, this can accommodate many people's needs, particularly in Europe, where due to the higher voltage, L1 is 3.6kW.
PascLeRasc 43 days ago [-]
One of my recurring daydreams is that 10 years from now we'll have mini charging stations on city streets by default. It'd really make EVs so much more accessible to the masses.
matsemann 43 days ago [-]
It's the norm in Oslo (Norway). Lots of public/street parking have had chargers installed the last years.
Gravityloss 43 days ago [-]
Some company was going to put chargers to lamp posts. What happened?
fredophile 43 days ago [-]
Probably the same thing people do in winter in cold climates. Get an outdoor extension cord and plug the car in.
jackdeansmith 43 days ago [-]
I've seen a decent amount of extension cord -> street parking rigs in the Seattle area. Seems fine for trickle charging but I sure as hell wouldn't use a no-name generic extension cord from amazon.
igorstellar 43 days ago [-]
Car power plant is important, but also everything else is. I just bought ICE german luxury car just because there is nothing even close to it in the EV department. Teslas interior are falling apart and build quality is really poor. I also do not want to share telemetry.

I do road trips sometimes and have no spare time to charge. Opinion: It seems like until there is something better than lithium batteries are coming up, EV market is just no good.

btbuildem 43 days ago [-]
Coming from an airport one day, I thought to myself, "OK, this is gonna be a treat" and hopped into one of the Tesla SUV taxis. Wow, kind of a letdown tbh. I expected high-end interior, but they're actually really bare-bones. This was a few years ago, not sure if they've changed anything though.
igorstellar 43 days ago [-]
I'm OK with being minimalist (as in Volvo/nordic minimalism) but when your $80K car has window rubber sticking out and squeaky dashboard, that's where I draw the line.
bognition 43 days ago [-]
Where are you getting the data on Tesla interiors? I’ve had my model 3 for 2 years and there hasn’t been a single problem.
Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
The Tesla Model 3 LR 2018 that i have driven rattled more in the interior than my 22 year old Volvo with recycled plastic in the interior that is known for rattling. I actually considered saving up for a model 3 because they look like interesting cars. But that drive turned me off so much.
cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
My 2018 Model 3 is quiet to the point that I will often hear creaks and rattles coming from outside the car. Now when I hear something I will instinctively speed up or slow down to see if the sound moves.

My mom's old Volvo required you to jam your knees under the dash to keep it from rattling.

radium3d 43 days ago [-]
That's unfortunate that you didn't give it a chance. Next time try them out. My 2019 3 SR+ had a rattling issue with the phone holder mount. I brought it into tesla service center within the first week and they fixed it and I haven't had a rattle since. It's a great interior imo
Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
What do you mean "try them out"? I said I drove one and i did not like it. It is not just the rattling interior that i dislike. The pedals, the wheel size, the rear passenger space, the trunk space, no speedo and no HUD in front of me, the electrical shifter... it is just not a car for me, even if i would accept the worse rattling for a car that is literally 50 times the price of my car.
radium3d 43 days ago [-]
Ah I see, cool beans

I do wish the 3 was a hatchback to fit larger stuff through the back. The Y might do better.

There is no transmission to shift though :) haha

Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
I dislike high driving positions of crossovers and suvs sooo... that is not a car for me either.
Teknoman117 43 days ago [-]
I tried one out. I'm 6'4 (193 cm for our friends outside the US), and even with the seat all the way back my right knee hits the screen. Would it have killed them to make it adjustable? It's a $50,000 car, come on.
radium3d 43 days ago [-]
Tech forum on YouTube designed an adjustable mount that lets you rotate the display https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqpcv11eHWE
cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
Did you lower the seat?

I'm 6'5" and I don't have the seat all the way back in mine.

Teknoman117 40 days ago [-]
I'm honestly not sure, I took a test drive at a Tesla showroom and the guy was tweaking the seat for me before I got in.

Tried to convince me to consider the Model S instead. Just, ya know, casually buy a car that costs twice as much. I think I'll get a house before I buy a $90k car...

cptskippy 39 days ago [-]
Sounds like he was trying to upsell you. I just checked and with the seat all the way back my knee is 4-5 inches from the screen in any position. At the position I keep it, my knee is actually under the screen but no matter how I move my leg it never comes within more than 2 inches of the screen.
dcchambers 43 days ago [-]
Even if there's no QA issues, the interior of the Model 3 is just so cold and bare IMO. Sitting in one next to a luxury or near-luxury car is night and day difference in both style and comfort. The Model S is better, but it's still blown away by other cars at the same price point.

I understand that style is subjective, but the majority of people I have talked with about it agree that the interior is a disappointment given the status of the brand.

igorstellar 43 days ago [-]
I work in tech and live in Bay Area. A lot of my friends and colleagues have teslas. I have been in X, 3 and S and I have not seen one that didn't have any obvious issues. I am not nitpicky either: for example I used to have Mazda and consider it being benchmark of quality interiors for $25K. After all, interior is where I spend lots of time in a commute.
x3haloed 43 days ago [-]
Sometime before 2030? Wow, don’t move too fast, Audi.
somesoftdev 43 days ago [-]
Living in a big Eastern European city with on-street parking I don't think I'll have a place to charge an EV by 2030. On the bright side I don't think I'll be buying 2030 cars before 2045, so I'm good for now :)
silon42 43 days ago [-]
At which point battery will be severely range degraded... IMO Li-ion is a mistake for Europe... LFP (LifePo4) would probably be better for longevity and adequate for range...

I understand it's probably needed for US due to longer distances, but for Europe LFP would be a better compromise IMO.

dzhiurgis 41 days ago [-]
What makes you’ll still have street parking then..? Cities in Europe are waking up and pushing cars out for good. Hope it’s sooner than later, especially in old towns.
wongarsu 43 days ago [-]
That seems like a decent timeline to plan factory capacity and set R&D priorities. And once you have made those plans you might as well announce them if it's a topic that can make the frontpage of hacker news.
S_A_P 43 days ago [-]
In car development cycles 9 years is pretty damn quick. If you truly understand the scope of how hard it is to build cars and completely switch your factory tooling and the capex involved you may feel differently...
symlinkk 43 days ago [-]
And how long did it take Tesla? It feels like these giant automakers are just slow and old fashioned
InitialLastName 43 days ago [-]
From a glance at wikipedia, Tesla took 5 years (2003 to 2008) from founding to (limited) production of the Roadster, and were under no expectation to get money or build other cars during that time. Then they built what appears to be a total of 2400 of them.

The Model S was announced in 2012 as their first "mass produced" road car (and they don't appear to have broken 100K cars in a year until ~2017), so that's 15 years to get anywhere near the scale of a grown-up car manufacturer.

To reiterate, they didn't have to support other production in any of that time, and they didn't have to make any sort of profit during any of that time.

To compare, Audi spits out ~2m cars a year, and can't just stop selling cars to retool their factories.

aidenn0 43 days ago [-]
...

9 years? Tesla was founded in 2003 and released the Model S in 2012.

[edit]

about 15 years to get to the monthly volume that the A4, 6, and 8 are manufactured.

Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
Some would say that Tesla is still learning how to put together a car.
Schiendelman 43 days ago [-]
And it turns out that knowing how to put together a car wasn’t a prerequisite to launching. :)
Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
Yeah, you just have to convince you that doors that are so misaligned that they eat into the paint is normal.
Schiendelman 36 days ago [-]
Their sales tell us that they don’t have to do that, apparently!
totalZero 43 days ago [-]
Audi sells almost four times the number of cars that Tesla sells annually, and in my opinion it's likely that we will see some ICE models sold alongside EVs as the world slowly transitions away from gasoline engines.

Also, Tesla's growth is not an overnight story.

eps 43 days ago [-]
They need time.

I would love to have an Audi that looks like one, feels like one and drives like one, but electric. I looked at what they have now and there's no sense in purchasing it because it gets 30% less mileage on full charge than a Tesla. So technology-wise, where it really actually matters, they are way behind. No doubts they will catch up, but they will need time.

43 days ago [-]
radium3d 43 days ago [-]
This is great. As an EV owner for almost 2 years now let me tell you you'll love the speed and savings

See my energy usage and cost spreadsheet for details. Scroll to the right for the charts. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16JLSzoWA0154ZUU3ahJ_...

brummm 43 days ago [-]
So this is something I keep asking myself. The largest part of the savings comes from the fact that electricity is much cheaper compared to gasoline on a 100km basis. Now, the reason gasoline is so expensive is the massive amount of taxes charged. However, those taxes directly fund the building and maintenance of the road infrastructure. Currently, EV owners essentially get to ride for free on that infrastructure since they aren't paying gasoline taxes.

Consequently, with more and more people switching over, the amount of taxes available for road maintenace, etc. will decrease and the electricity for driving will have to be taxed much in the same way as gasoline is and thus eliminating the savings early adopters are currently enjoying.

ip26 43 days ago [-]
The federal fuel tax is 18 cents, not exactly massive. (Maybe you aren’t in the US though)
parliament32 43 days ago [-]
"Federal" try adding all your state/provincial, then local taxes. For me, in BC:

    Provincial motor fuel tax (Metro Vancouver) — 1.75 cents 
    Provincial motor fuel tax (everywhere else in B.C.) — 7.75 cents.
    B.C.'s carbon tax — 8.89 cents.
    The B.C. Transportation Finance Authority tax — 6.75 cents.
    TransLink tax (If you live in Metro Vancouver) — 17 cents, increasing to 18.5 cents on July 1.
    Transit tax (If you live in Victoria) — 5.5 cents.
    Federal excise tax — 10 cents.
    Finally, pay the five per cent Goods and Services Tax on top of the total price.
Adds up to 50% tax ish.
dzhiurgis 41 days ago [-]
Most Europa pay something near $10 per gallon of gas. Does US taxing so little means their roads are half the cost?
parliament32 40 days ago [-]
More people own cars in the US -> more gas purchased -> more total tax. Contrary to popular belief, the amount of cars driving over a road doesn't really contribute to how often it has to be repaved/repaired -- a road's wear is almost entirely based on its age. The more cars you have, the less fuel taxes will be to maintain the same amount of road surface.

This means that when EVs become more popular, there'll be clever ways of taxing them too, whether it's an insurance surcharge or an up-front purchase tax or some sort of special "electricity for EVs" tax. This is the honeymoon period when they seem super cheap to drive, but that'll change as they replace fuel-powered cars and someone needs to pay for the roads/infra.

dzhiurgis 33 days ago [-]
US has 10% more roads tho (probably more lanes too).

However looking at road fuel use US uses something like 5-10x more fuel per year when compared with EU states.

That's kinda insane.

radium3d 43 days ago [-]
I think you're missing the efficiency aspect. Gasoline carries a much larger amount of energy so having a far more energy efficient, say in my example 26mpg going to 130+mpg saves a lot in energy cost as well.

We do not ride for free. We pay an extra ~$100 a year (formula based on cost of car. I think it should be based on the weight of the vehicle personally. My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car) for registration here in California which covers the road maintenance so no need to worry there.

brummm 43 days ago [-]
How does $100 even compare? Currently in California there is a 79.6 cent tax(18.4 federal + 61.2 state) on a gallon of gasoline (I googled and it came up with a price of $3.36 per gallon. That boils down to a ~24% tax on gasoline. So for spending $416 dollars on gas, you'd be paying $100 of tax. I don't think paying $100 is even remotely enough to make up for the missing revenue.

Further, a fixed fee penalizes people that drive a lot exactly as much as people that barely drive whereas a tax on the consumed quantity, gas or electricity, takes into account how much a person is using the road infrastructure.

radium3d 43 days ago [-]
Not all of the tax money on gasoline goes directly to road maintenance I would guess, it also goes to environmental cleanup projects I believe. Also, remember that EV's are not as heavy in all cases. My 3 SR+ weighs just 3627 lb

Also note that here in CA if the car costs more the registration fee for the EV is more than $100 so I think that helps make up for the difference as well.

brummm 43 days ago [-]
Fair enough. But that revenue would still be missing if everybody would switch to EV and it will have to be made up by taxing electricity used for charging car batteries.

Also, a Toyota Corolla for example only weighs 2,910 to 3,150 lbs according to google.

cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
> Also, a Toyota Corolla for example only weighs 2,910 to 3,150 lbs according to google.

In terms of size, the Model 3 is closer aligned to a Camry than a Corolla. The Camry is ~3300-3600 lbs.

43 days ago [-]
Marsymars 43 days ago [-]
> My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car.

It absolutely does. The Honda Civic hatchback has 3. cubic feet more cargo room than the Tesla 3 with the seats down (including the frunk) and weighs 600 lb less.

kingnothing 43 days ago [-]
You're not comparing apples to apples between a Model 3 and a Civic. A better comparison is a Model 3 and a BMW 3 series. The former in LR RWD trim weighs in at 3,800 lbs with the latter 328i at 3600 lbs.
Marsymars 43 days ago [-]
It’s a fair comparison; a Civic hatchback isn’t non-comparable for any reason that’s related to its weight.

For any like-for-like car, an electric car is significantly heavier. Look at, e.g. the gasoline Kia Soul (2,800 lb) vs the EV Kia Soul (3,700 lb).

radium3d 43 days ago [-]
You're looking at non EV specific designed cars. The Kia Soul is a conversion. Look into the Model 3, Model Y, VW ID3, VW ID4, Ford Mustang Mach E or the Chevy Bolt.
Marsymars 43 days ago [-]
I mean, my original comparison was between a Model 3 and Civic, and the complaint was that it wasn’t an apples-to-apples comparison, so I gave an apples-to-apples comparison instead with the same vehicle in gasoline and electric configurations.

None of the cars you listed are under 3,500 lb, meanwhile, many compact gasoline cars are under 3,000 lb, with subcompacts under 2,500 lb. Batteries are heavy.

radium3d 42 days ago [-]
They aren't as heavy as most might think is my point.

The average midsize car is 3361 lbs and the model 3 SR+ is 3600 lbs so 239 lbs is the difference between the two for an extremely good EV. It is very good to spread this information.

Marsymars 42 days ago [-]
I don’t think a restriction to midsized cars is fair, since you can’t get an electric car that weighs less than the 3,500 lb range. It’s impossible for me to go out and buy an electric car that isn’t a heavy car.
durkie 43 days ago [-]
I think you're right that the road tax structure will have to change as we move away from ICE cars, but I think the likelihood of electricity becoming more expensive is every low. Electricity is too ubiquitous, and its price should fall tremendously in the coming years (new solar projects being quoted at 2c/kwh and falling in several parts of the world)
brummm 43 days ago [-]
I don't think electricity will increase in price, but electricity used for moving a car will be taxed much like gasoline currently is. So the electricity used at home will stay the same, but the one used in car battery chargers will be a multiple of the price of normal electricity.
cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
The tax just moves over the vehicle registration. In Georgia it was calculated in the tag fee and was about $250.
dannyw 43 days ago [-]
This will become relevant to me when I can buy a second hand, fully-electric vehicle for $5000-7500.
toomuchtodo 43 days ago [-]
Used Nissan Leafs and Bolts are abundant at that price point. Assume it’ll be a while before Teslas reach that used price point, eventually they will though.
Scoundreller 43 days ago [-]
Leafs are problematic because they lacked battery thermal management.
whalesalad 43 days ago [-]
Someone in my neighborhood has a leaf with the license plate NORANGE
cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
Eh... yes but no.

The lizard battery chemistry introduced around 2014 addressed a lot of the issues with degradation and those issues really only came up in climates like Arizona and Texas with punishing heat.

Unless you're driving a lot during extreme heat waves or DC Fast Charging regularly, you'll be fine in most climates.

Thermal Management Systems are definitely better but it's not really problematic.

throwawayboise 43 days ago [-]
How much range do you lose when it's 15 degrees and you have to park outside? And you need to heat the interior?
cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
From my experience, cold doesn't really impact the range in an appreciable way. Driving habits, mood, and behavior have more of an impact on the range than anything else.

I have a 2015 with a heat pump, heated seats, and heated steering wheel so it takes very little to get comfortable. And it gets comfortable about 15 minutes faster than my old 2007 Honda Accord did.

I can't speak for the 2nd Gen models but the 1st Gen models with the Sat Nav infotainment have a power monitor screen that shows how much power systems are drawing and how much range you gain when shutting them down. I've never seen a gain of more than 5 miles when 100% charged, it's usually 2 miles. Only one time have I been in a situation where that mattered and it was entirely my own fault.

Another thing to consider is, that unless your commute consumes the entire range of the vehicle then it doesn't really matter as long as you can charge every night. I use to have a 50 mile round trip commute and I would charge on a regular 120v circuit every night when I got home, I never had issues. If I needed to run an errand I could plug the car in at work and come out with 100% charge at the end of the day.

radium3d 43 days ago [-]
You can get a 120 mile range 2016 eGolf for a great price right now. Check it out. Bolt's are also going for very low cost ~$16-17k just a couple years old now.
throwawayboise 43 days ago [-]
$16,000 is 4x what I paid for my last car, a big comfortable Volvo.
radium3d 43 days ago [-]
How much money went to burnt gas instead of your next car since you bought it though?
43 days ago [-]
yurishimo 43 days ago [-]
How far is your commute? $200/mo for any decently efficient car is quite a bit. We use around $150/mo for a 2012 CR-V and my spouse has a 45 mile commute round trip in city traffic. This is Texas, so I guess I should mention gas is 30% cheaper than California. I suppose that could make up the difference...
cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
I was paying ~$180/mo driving a 2007 Honda Accord on a 50 mile round-trip commute. When I got a 2015 Nissan Leaf, my power bill went up about $25 a month and I spent about $25 a month at charging stations.
radium3d 43 days ago [-]
Yeah, gas costs a lot more here in California. I don't really commute a long distance but I do take my cars on road trips often and I'm the one who drives most often with friends (before covid anyway)
Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
>let me tell you you'll love the speed and savings

These better be some insane savings considering my car cost 22k€ and the cheapest Tesla available (2014 Model S with 279 000 km driven) is 38k€.

radium3d 43 days ago [-]
It may be cheaper to go new with incentives vs used straight off Tesla.com, but I am unsure about overseas pricing.
Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
It definitely isn't here. A new Tesla Model S (Long Range Plus) is 89,864 € and a new Tesla Model 3 (Standard Range Plus) is 50,560 €.

If the 600 € documentation fee doesn't apply to the 50,000 € max price restriction, you might be able to get a 2,000 € incentive for the Model 3, which would bring it down to 48,560 €.

For comparison, a new Mercedes-Benz C-Class starts at 38,750 € and a Volkswagen Golf starts at 24,400 €.

wuschel 43 days ago [-]
Just had a quick look.

Did you compare theoretical (gasoline) vs measured (electric) values?

The cost difference is quite significant. What is the error here?

While I knew electric engines can be more efficient, I was surprised by these numbers.

mlyle 43 days ago [-]
This is about right. A lot of comparisons are slightly off because they use the energy numbers from the car itself which leave out charger inefficiency --- which can be rather bad on Tesla --- but it doesn't change the big picture.

On the other hand, you need to consider the amortized cost of the vehicle itself; both a higher vehicle cost and the likelihood of a somewhat lower vehicle lifetime. Maybe increased performance counteracts some of this for you?

Further complicating things is maintenance. Oil changes are avoided. Brake pad changes are reduced. But tire wear is usually increased...

And after all this, there's the convenience differences (both ways). You never need to go to a gas station for a normal drive. But road trips suck a lot more.

radium3d 43 days ago [-]
To be fair, road trips wouldn't suck a lot more, you just get to stretch your legs after 2 hours of driving (or a lot more if you have one of the 400 mile range model S!) I'd hope you stop to pee or something after 400 miles of driving Lol
mlyle 43 days ago [-]
You still have fewer choices of where to stop/eat and will be stopping longer.
radium3d 43 days ago [-]
Actually, this includes the energy used by my water heater, refrigerator and heat/cooling over night after midnight as noted on the sheet. So the savings are even greater :)

Also, the gasoline numbers are actual numbers at the pump. I logged them every time I filled up my old 2014 Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid. The amount of energy in a gallon of gasoline is not theoretical, it is very close to 33.7kWh.

mrpopo 43 days ago [-]
An IC engine is 20-30% efficient depending on the technology (the rest is waste heat). An electric engine is 80-90%.

Even if you imagine the electricity comes from a gasoline power plant, the efficiency at the plant will be higher than a regular car ICE because of scale benefits + use of a cold sink (ocean/river).

symlinkk 43 days ago [-]
I always find it weird that people who have enough money to spend $40k (minimum) on a Tesla care so much about saving $80/mo.
radium3d 43 days ago [-]
When I purchased the Model 3 SR+ the cost before tax was $32,790.00 including the Federal and State EV incentives in May 2019.
kwhitefoot 43 days ago [-]
Some of us spent a little more on the car partly in order to reduce cost of fuel not because the price of the car was pocket money.
shocks 43 days ago [-]
I just can’t fall in love with EVs. They don’t seem to have the same ‘soul’ as ICEs, which feel beautiful from an engineering perspective.

I would happily have an EV daily, but I’ll always want an ICE exotic of some kind for weekend fun.

igorstellar 43 days ago [-]
Unfortunately, some brands started adding fake noise engines through speakers due to NVH being too good: you just won't hear the engine. It's funny how modern BMW I6 cylinder powered cars are making V8 noises through speakers - consider it as a free engine upgrade lol :)
ThisIsTheWay 43 days ago [-]
IIRC even the high end V8-fitted cars like the M5 had fake engine noises pumped through the speakers too.
GordonS 43 days ago [-]
I test drove a petrol BMW X5 (something like a 4 litre V8, IIRC) a couple of years back, and even it piped fake engine noise through the speakers, a kind of "growling" rumble.

It sounded so fake it was ridiculous. I almost felt embarrassed, even though I knew nobody outside could hear it!

hyperdimension 43 days ago [-]
I think I know what you mean.

Putting aside emissions, modern engines are a remarkable achievement, that's for sure. I'm relatively mechanically inclined, and I still can't help but to marvel at this machinery that can (albeit, rather inefficiently...) transfer chemical energy to movement. It's just a neat piece of machinery.

...Don't even get me started on the Wankel engine on the Mazda RX-*s!

parliament32 43 days ago [-]
They're simply a different class. Just like a car will never replace my love for motorcycles, an EV will never replace my love for a screaming turbo ICE in a clapped-out chassis. They're neat, and I'll probably buy one at some point, but it's just not the same.
shocks 43 days ago [-]
Ha, I can relate. Motorcycle guy also.
dzhiurgis 41 days ago [-]
I can’t relate. There was a biker that went on a joy ride here at 6AM, entering each drive and roaring his stupid bike. I’ve never felt so ready to run someone over.

Loving a petrol engine is surely some form of Stockholm syndrome.

sixQuarks 43 days ago [-]
If hackernews was around in the early 1900s, a similar comment would have appeared, but replace ICE cars with horses.
pdabbadabba 43 days ago [-]
And, indeed, a lot of people still ride horses for fun. But it's fairly rare as a bona fide mode of transportation.

It sounds like others in this thread are predicting something similar for ICEs.

igorstellar 43 days ago [-]
Nah, horses -> cars was dramatic transition, while ICE -> EV is not. Some (younger) people won’t even notice it, if done properly. No way you can create a horse replica that will be so realistic, people ride it as a horse!
wing-_-nuts 43 days ago [-]
I'd love to go EV, but I rented apartments before finally buying a condo. Where am I supposed to charge?

The greenest option I can realistically go for is a hybrid, but I'll probably wind up going for a regular ICE car, as they typically have much better acceleration than hybrids, esp at highway passing speeds.

yurishimo 43 days ago [-]
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, but most apartments in the US are awful for EV owners. There are 3 in my building and they all share a single 120v outlet in the parking garage. They rotate who gets to park in the spot close to it every day.

I would be surprised if they get enough range overnight to cover their commute. I imagine most of them supplement with chargers elsewhere around the city, but that's much more expensive than having somewhere to hook it up at home, even if it is slower.

GloriousKoji 43 days ago [-]
I guess they're all downvoting OP for not choosing living in a house, routing another 240V line in the garage and adding on solar panels and taking electric car ownership seriously. /s

But seriously, it's a problem. If you're not lucky enough to have free charging at work it's something like $1 to $2 per kWh at charging stations, which results in costing as much or more per mile than an ICE.

wing-_-nuts 43 days ago [-]
They're probably downvoting the fact that I'm choosing ICE over hybrid.

For example, I'd rather buy a honda civic hatch than an insight hybrid because the hatch has better acceleration, and cargo capacity while still getting decent fuel economy.

wing-_-nuts 43 days ago [-]
Yeah the HOA at my condo complex is ran by ... some older folks who aren't really all that tech savvy. I asked one of the folks on the board if I could put in a charging station on my parking spot, on my own dime. He laughed and said the HOA wrote him up for running a charging cable out to a battery charger to jump start his car. He said he highly doubted they'd be willing to allow folks have chargers installed any time soon. Bummer. I like the idea of owning an EV but that will have to wait until I own a SFH years down the line.
parliament32 43 days ago [-]
Exactly. Not a chance until 1) street parking has charging sockets built into the meters, and 2) apartments/condos/parkades catch up and provide power at stalls.
eps 43 days ago [-]
In a garage? Typically there will be provisions for installing a charger in your parking stall and have it billed to you.
notJim 43 days ago [-]
"Typically"? I think 90% of apartment complexes in the US would tell you to pound sand.
itsoktocry 43 days ago [-]
>Typically

Typically there is no garage.

partlysean 43 days ago [-]
I'm right there with you. Our condo building is just over 100 years old and has 2 parking spots for 6 units (we're not one of the lucky ones). We'd love to own an EV, but it's just not practical.

This gets to my big complaint with companies like Tesla. They designed an impressive, game changing EV, but their solution ecosystem works best if you have a home with a garage in the suburbs. I don't have a garage to install a Tesla Powerwall that's charged by a Tesla Solar Roof for me to park a Model S.

If Tesla wanted to truly address climate change and get more electric transportation to more people, they'd solve city charging and start designing commuter transit.

rsync 43 days ago [-]
... which is another way of saying that there will not be normal Audi electrics until 2030.

Another ten years of iMobiles and e-Tron Space cars and e-initiatives.

Volvo made a similar announcement a few years ago and I see I cannot buy an electric V90. Or any actual volvo other than the little XC40 and their iMobile/eCar Polestar.

We don't want your electric car. We want your car, electric.

r_klancer 43 days ago [-]
In Volvo's case I think it's a matter of platform refresh times. The (brand-new) XC40 Recharge BEV is based on the new "CMA" platform that is designed to be flexible enough to support ICE or PHEV or full BEV configurations.

The S90/V90 are built on a platform that wasn't designed to support BEVs, but given Volvo's commitments I expect the next V90 will be available as a BEV. But the current V90 was released in 2016 so the redesign probably won't arrive til 2024 or so.

My neighbor has a gorgeous [*] new V60 sitting out on his driveway. But that model was just refreshed a couple years ago, so given usual model lifetimes, I figure it'll be five or six years before the next V60 redesign, and that there won't be a true BEV V60 until then.

On the other hand, I hope they don't retire the "Eurowagon" form factor at the same time! I don't like crossovers and SUVs, so I'm hopeful that Volvo and VW Group (Audi, VW, or both) will have compelling electric wagons for sale by mid-decade when I expect to retire my ICEmobile.

[*] Yes, I just described a Volvo wagon as gorgeous, but there it is. What is this world coming to.

43 days ago [-]
chrisseaton 43 days ago [-]
What's the difference between a Polestar and an 'actual Volvo'? Just the badge on front? What's that matter? I think Polestar used to be literally a trim level, so they can't be that different.
Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
Polestar makes two cars: a very limited production number hybrid and a weird-looking/ugly electric 5-door that starts at £46k.

Volvo makes two estates (starting at £35k), tree SUVs (starting at £25k) and two saloons (starting at £40k).

chrisseaton 43 days ago [-]
It's the same company. Polestar is entirely owned by Volvo. Many of the components are the same. It's just a different brand and badge that's applied to some models.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polestar

> Polestar is a Swedish automotive brand owned by Volvo Cars

Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
You know who owns Porsche and Bentley, right?

There's zero overlap when it comes to Polestar models and Volvo models. The Polestar 2 just shares the platform with Volvo's SUV.

chrisseaton 43 days ago [-]
Are you possibly confusing Volkswagen Group and Volkswagen? For example Volkswagen don't own Bentley, if that's what you're thinking. Volkswagen and Bentley are both owned by Volkswagen Group. Volvo does simply own Polestar.
Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
Polestar builds tunes for regular Volvos and 2 cars. The polestar 1 is a plug in hybrid coupe that costs about 200k and the polestar 2 is a model 3 competitor that is rather new.
hasmolo 43 days ago [-]
polestar is it's own performance group associated with volvo. they are extending out the base stuff by a lot, but fundamentally are rebuilding everything. checkout the polestar one to see what's up. imagine polestar is the same as dinnan for bmw, a close partner, but rebuilds the entire drivetrain
chrisseaton 43 days ago [-]
I don't think they're 'associated' with or a 'close partner' of Volvo... I think they're just Volvo, entirely owned. It's just a marketing thing. It's still Volvo.
hasmolo 43 days ago [-]
interestingly, polestar is half owned by volvo and half owned by geely, volvos parent company. polestar was an independent company until 2015. [0]

0: http://zgh.com/our-brands/polestar/?lang=en

anewaccount2021 43 days ago [-]
An interesting side-effect will be a potential market for crazy-cheap used ICE luxury cars. Once all of the high-earners demand EVs, the market will be flooded with lightly-used luxury ICE vehicles. A year-old Bentley for $30k? The day might come as long as you are willing to be one of the ICE dinosaurs!
mschaef 43 days ago [-]
> A year-old Bentley for $30k? The day might come as long as you are willing to be one of the ICE dinosaurs!

The depreciation curves aren't quite that steep, but there are still some startlingly low prices on ICE cars that used to be very expensive.

Edmunds ran a long term test on an used MB CL65. They paid $40K in 2014 for a car that initially stickered in 2005 for $180K. So at least more accessible than it used to be. Of course, their ownership was then punctuated with hard to find parts and $16K repair bills. A year later, they had to drop their asking price from $28K to resell it at $25K.

https://www.edmunds.com/mercedes-benz/cl-class/2005/long-ter...

High end cars tend to have high end problems even if they don't hang on to their high end prices.

jacquesm 43 days ago [-]
With cars being able to buy one doesn't mean you can afford it.
chrisseaton 43 days ago [-]
> They paid $40K in 2014 for a car that initially stickered in 2005 for $180K.

Right but it's now a ten year old car. You didn't pay $40k and get a $180k car. You paid $40k and got $40k of car. I don't get why people are so excited to 'save' $140k, because they haven't gotten any of that value.

vgeek 43 days ago [-]
It depends-- similar to how a balance sheet goodwill value can be interpreted, the "luxury of status"/Veblen component of a car quickly disappears after 3,5 or 10 years once the styling/features change. You're probably paying a more realistic value relative to the intrinsic value of the car at that point-- which places more emphasis on performance/aesthetics/reliability/costs to keep running, rather than status-- because the car will still likely still have the luxury components such as _Corinthian Leather_, ride quality, power, quiet ride, etc.. If you buy a 10 year old Lexus with 50k miles (out of a 250k expected lifespan) that retailed for $80k for $8k, and it still has the same functions/performance/reliability, did you get "less car" than when new, or did you just not pay the status premium? How much does the status premium change if it is $15k for an originally $75k car that has 50k miles and an expected longevity of only 120k miles?

It is amazing to look at the used car market (for likely daily driven vehicles) and see how specific vehicles hold their value so much differently. There are specific Audis that have a proclivity to grenading their $20k-to-replace transmissions at 80k miles, or have a rear engine timing chain that is a low 5 digit replacement when it eats a guide. So these once $80k cars can be had for a steep discount given someone is paying a huge repair bill if it is to still be driven. Even with econoboxes from finance companies who happen to sell cars (think FCA) that have had consistent sludge/electrical/emission issues over the last 3 decades-- the price falls so much faster than an equivalent Toyota. While nowadays nearly any mass market car will be able to run for 200k miles, how much will it cost to achieve said goal? This is not entirely unknown to buyers, so prices do tend to reflect. It isn't foolproof-- companies like Toyota and Honda can make crappy cars, and bad companies can make good cars-- but the average consumer uses a lot of heuristic shortcuts/anecdotes/etc. to make purchasing decisions.

The enthusiast segments are even more fascinating. Certain cars are going to be more akin to works of art, even if they weren't supercar expensive to begin with: see S2000's and mk4 Supras. Even further, some vehicles for some reason are not inherently reliable, have mediocre drivetrains and practical functionality but have a much shallower depreciation curve-- Jeep Wranglers.

mschaef 43 days ago [-]
> they haven't gotten any of that value.

Agreed... and I think it's even more the case in that part of the value of that car is the price tag itself and the exclusivity it brings to your purchase. The used car doesn't have that (and it does have the associated downsides of the expensive and complex car).

blackaspen 43 days ago [-]
I think we'll see the opposite -- ICE vehicles are going to go up in price as collectors items.
WillPostForFood 43 days ago [-]
You might be right for the high end (the Bentley example), but the middle/lower end of luxury isn't that interesting as a collectible, cars like a 5 series BMW, or Lexus LS, and could really drop in value.
pureliquidhw 43 days ago [-]
Seeing how manual transmission cars from the mid aught's are demanding a massive premium (like 100%+ on 1,3, and 5-series), I could see in 2045 ICE cars demanding a premium. Manual ICE cars even more so. But that's assuming they aren't projected to be illegal/heavily taxed by then.
blackaspen 43 days ago [-]
Yep -- already they do, speaking as someone trying to find a manual BMW Wagon.

The supply is already gone and has been for a while. The other comment in this thread on ever-smarter (cloud connected) cars too means that the market for not-cloud-connected cars is going to continue to increase too.

Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
My first car was a manual 316i wagon. There definitely wasn't a premium back then unless you compared it to a ratty Corolla.
redbeard0x0a 43 days ago [-]
For some vehicles, yes.

Such as:

* Toyota Tacoma - yes * Subaru WRX STI - yes

But getting into the honda accord, toyota camry, these are the ICE vehicles that are going to be crazy cheap.

adventured 43 days ago [-]
It'll bifurcate as a market. Nice, collectible, lesser used ICE vehicles will go up in value, for collectors that can still afford to operate and own them. It'll be a wealthier person's hobby. For everyone else they'll have very little value and most of the market will become far more burden than it's worth (because there will be increasing environmental costs associated with operating them, selling/buying them, registering them, and disposing of them).
gedy 43 days ago [-]
Especially if EVs continue down the "smart car" route with locked down firmwares, dealer-only maintenance, etc.
netsharc 43 days ago [-]
They're probably going to set road tax really high for ICE cars in a decade or so... (although, that wouldn't help people who can't afford to buy an EV).

Nowadays old cars and buses get exported to less developed countries, e.g. in Africa. So, there'll be a lot of Africans driving Bentley instead.

anewaccount2021 43 days ago [-]
I agree that once EVs break the $30k price barrier + time for market adoption, we will indeed see disincentives for owning an ICE car...but there will be enough time to get some years out of driving an ICE car bought at a bargain from some high-earner who can't handle the negative signal it sends to peers.
solarkraft 43 days ago [-]
They're going to be cheap, but/because you're not going to want one.

The type of depreciation you're describing would happen in response to an extremely sudden change in circumstances, which I'm not expecting.

ICEs are dying predictably enough for that Bentley to never have been bought at its original price.

stevenae 43 days ago [-]
You can already get lightly-used Bentleys for $30k -- https://bringatrailer.com/bentley/continental-gt/
mhh__ 43 days ago [-]
>A year-old Bentley for $30k?

Now with even more expensive repair bills than before!

Der_Einzige 43 days ago [-]
You don't want a cheap Bentley no matter how much you think that you do.
mauvehaus 43 days ago [-]
The point of having a Bentley or Rolls-Royce isn't to drive a Bentley. It's to be driven in one.
kwhitefoot 43 days ago [-]
Traditionally it went like this in the UK: the expensive Rolls is the one you have a chauffeur for, the cheapest Roller is the self made millionaire's car and he drives himself, and the Bentley is a driver's car for the filthy rich.
Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
That's just downright false since the Bentley Continental GT, Rolls-Royce Wraith and Rolls-Royce Dawn exist.
costcopizza 43 days ago [-]
I hope gassers are kept for a few of their high performance RS models.

Their 5cyl motor is a beast, and the sound is an sensation no EV will ever top.

guidoism 43 days ago [-]
Meh. Put in some good subwoofers and you’ll never know the difference. :) I have been (only half jokingly) planning a electrification of an old 2-stroke Vespa or Lambretta and decided that it wouldn’t feel right unless it shook like a two stroke. So gotta put in some mechanical vibration and noise producers.
the_gastropod 43 days ago [-]
Don't forget the fog machine to leave a little trail of smoke behind you. Bonus points if you can put in a 2-stroke-exhaust-scent infuser in there!
NullPrefix 43 days ago [-]
>Put in some good subwoofers and you’ll never know the difference.

Audi already way ahead of you. Speakers in the exhaust to match your mood. Can be controlled from your phone using WiFi, obviously.

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/2017-audi-sq7-f...

rasz 43 days ago [-]
Is it a real sound, or one generated with speakers/additional devices?

https://www.autoweek.com/drives/a1818231/first-drives-2018-a...

"It has a "soundaktor," which is diaphragm at the rear of the engine bay (bolted to the firewall) that takes the engine sound and enhances it through resonance."

Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
Do not get your hopes up. Governments have decided that ICE engines will get killed and that will happen. Have a look at Euro 7. Looks like from 2025 onwards the EU wont be able to buy ICE cars anymore. Even PHEVs will probably have i4s at max. That is if the proposals do not get scrapped. Which i doubt though.
Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
The problem I see with these bans are that governments are subject to the voters and many voters have cars.
Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
The EU is not really voted by the people. Very indirectly at max. And even then there are many people with cars who want to keep their cars but still vote green here. For some obscure reasons.
Hamuko 43 days ago [-]
EU memberships are voted by the people. We have already seen that populism can get a country out of the EU even if it's not a great idea. And there are already vocal people against EU memberships. Imagine giving them more reasons to rile up people.
Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
Would be a good thing to be honest. The EU is a trade pact that went horribly wrong with overregulation and a lot of costs. What happens in the EU is not voted for but if you are in the EU is. Huge governments are just as harmful as huge companies.
sorenso 43 days ago [-]
I suppose the other makers in VAG will follow since it's cars on the same platforms of many other cars like the VW Passat.
mmacvicarprett 43 days ago [-]
Anyone knows why only A4, A6 and A8 and not also A5 and A7 ?
igorstellar 43 days ago [-]
it could be because A5 (coupe) and A7 (liftback) are more enthusiast cars rather than your typical sedan. although A8 are way past commodity car.
lmedinas 43 days ago [-]
this is great news... i got an VW ID.4 this week and its an amazing good family car. VAG is definitely on the right way.
darkr 43 days ago [-]
It seems a bit short sighted to abandon hybrids altogether. EV's are great for your average suburban/urban commuter, but they are terrible for long distance cross-country drives as you have to wait for hours for it to charge (presuming that current issues with availability to charge points in service stations are addressed).

I once had to drive 900 miles in around 12 hours to make a flight (driving an Audi funnily enough). That journey would take _days_ in an EV.

account4mypc 43 days ago [-]
1. if you only drive far once in a while, then i think an ev is fine... you can always rent/take a train/miss a flight... might be worth it to save the planet :)

2. this is less and less true every year. a model s with supercharging only adds about 1.5 x on a really long trip (less if you stop overnight every 8 hrs as you should anyway)

jedberg 43 days ago [-]
> If you only drive far once in a while, then i think an ev is fine... you can always rent/take a train/miss a flight... might be worth it to save the planet :)

Not a lot of people live that close to a transit station. That's why they have to drive a long distance.

> a model s with supercharging only adds about 1.5 x on a really long trip (less if you stop overnight every 8 hrs as you should anyway)

I have two adults, we trade off. We can easily drive 16+ hours in a day.

Also, even on a short trip it adds a lot of time. I can make it from my house in NorCal to my parents in SoCal in just under five hours without stopping, but there is no Tesla that can make the whole drive on one charge. I'd have to stop for at least 45 minutes extra (that's a 15% increase).

I still want to go all electric, and plan to do so as soon as someone makes a fully electric minivan, but I'm not going to downplay the inconvenience of electric.

mmacvicarprett 43 days ago [-]
You can always carry a diesel generator in the trunk, problem solved.
jedberg 43 days ago [-]
Unless someone modifies a car to allow it to charge from a generator while driving, you'd still have to stop to charge.
account4mypc 34 days ago [-]
i believe the bmw i3 rex does exactly this
mmacvicarprett 43 days ago [-]
They are not visionaries....
Laarlf 43 days ago [-]
1) You could just buy a diesel which seems to be better with co2 emissions for now. Nuclear power is a rarity still.
cptskippy 43 days ago [-]
> they are terrible for long distance cross-country drives as you have to wait for hours for it to charge

That's mostly untrue. I use to drive from Atlanta to Jelico and back a couple times a year and in my Model 3 it added probably 20-30 minutes to the trip time compared to an ICE vehicle.

The rate at which an EV charges slows down as the battery gets closer to 100%. The time to charge an EV from 5-55% is faster than the time to charge from 55-100%. If you only charge up to 80% or 90% you will cut a significant amount of time off your charge times. The Tesla trip planner will plan routes with this in mind automatically.

We moved cross country last year (~2200 miles) from GA to CA and it took us 4 days. I drove a diesel box truck and my partner drove the Model 3, we took the same route but didn't stick together. We stopped at the same overnight stops and our arrival departure times were with in 30 minutes of one another.

What you don't realize on long road trips is that stops for fuel rarely consist of just filling up. You use the restroom, stretch, buy a snack, etc. That all adds up to 15-25 minute stops, where as the Model 3 would stop to charge for 20-30 minutes.

michaelmior 43 days ago [-]
The only reason I drive a PHEV instead of a full EV is because (at least before the pandemic) longer trips were a relatively common occurrence and aside from the much shorter refueling time, gas stations are still much more ubiquitous than EV charging stations, especially in rural areas.

I do hope though that moves like this drive the deployment of more charging stations and that we'll continue to see technology that reduce charge times and increase range. For me, I think the tipping point is 500 miles where I would lean towards purchasing a full EV. Critically for me, this range must be sustainable in cold temperatures. I've found with my PHEV that my electric range is sometimes cut nearly in half in the cold.

namdnay 43 days ago [-]
Days? Come on... 900 miles is two intermediate stops at 300 and 600, maybe 2h each with a DC fast charge ?
lrem 43 days ago [-]
From tesla.com description of Model Y:

> Recharge 162 miles in 15 minutes at Supercharger locations

Meaning you add a grand total of one hour charge time. With each charge being about long enough to do a bio break and a short stretch.

Assuming you get chargers without waiting, that is.

itsoktocry 43 days ago [-]
>Assuming you get chargers without waiting, that is.

Which is a massive assumption.

We have line-ups at fuel stations during tourist season where I'm from. So you're going to be charging longer, more often, at vast parking lots of chargers? Sounds pretty bad...

blowfish721 43 days ago [-]
I’m still hoping that, in the future, there will be conductive charging built into freeways, main roads, etc. But that’s a huge cost which I’m sure no one wants to take. It would however help with the range problem of EVs. The people that could make it a reality in the future are probably hoping for giant advancements in battery tech instead.